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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:07 pm 
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I had heard that TT had withdrawn the new s148 due to the problems, but I wouldn't trust the source of information 100%.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:11 pm 
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Regarding the latest TTS148-3 turbo. Mine has just been removed and UPS picked it up today. It is on its way back to turbo technics to be "modified". Tim from TBdevelopments told me they were going to remove the 70mm compressor and replace with the old 66mm version. I have a thread regarding this on the GT4 section of the Celica-Club forums.

A Bov will make no difference to the surge as it is on throttle surge. Mine happened between 4.5-5k. Luckily Turbo Technics have arranged collection for free and will fix the issue.

Seems to me TT did very little to no testing when they built this latest revision.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:37 pm 
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Don,

I had seen that car. I had also wondered how much someone would produce that adapter plate. I was actually discussing that car with someone today due to their raising the strut towers on the front to lower the car but retain stroke. I was wanting to research if that is allowed in any of the types of racing I want to do.
If that adapter plate was made available at a fair price, then the axles and tranny mounts would be the biggest hurdle. Maktrak would be out of my price range, but I figured 2nd hand evo7 parts with torsen front/center and clutch rear would be a good start. If one wanted to spend some time sorting it out, they could get the active center to work, but that would be a long project I think. I do want to get the car back on the road some day.

I know of some high power 185s using 205 boxes and only started having problems in what seems to be the over 700whp area. Pat C managed to run his in his 212mph standing mile run as well as his over 800whp drag runs. These guys are now working on custom gear sets to go further.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:30 pm 
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bricktop wrote:
Regarding the latest TTS148-3 turbo. Mine has just been removed and UPS picked it up today. It is on its way back to turbo technics to be "modified". Tim from TBdevelopments told me they were going to remove the 70mm compressor and replace with the old 66mm version. I have a thread regarding this on the GT4 section of the Celica-Club forums.

A Bov will make no difference to the surge as it is on throttle surge. Mine happened between 4.5-5k. Luckily Turbo Technics have arranged collection for free and will fix the issue.

Seems to me TT did very little to no testing when they built this latest revision.
Just read your thread on Celica Club and the OC and viewed your video/soundtrack of the problem. Quite an intriguing situation. Compressor surge normally happens when you get flow reversal such as happens when you change gear and the throttle plate snaps shut. That clearly wasn't happening in your case as you were getting compressor flutter at fairly modest revs and speed while still on the throttle.

I read that Turbo Technics have upgraded the S148-3 with a billet 70mm compressor wheel (up from 66mm apparently). If this has been mounted in a CT26 sized compressor housing without it being adequately ported then I would guess it is incompatible with the larger compressor. Presumably at certain compressor speeds the airflow hits this housing restriction and gets reflected back to the compressor wheel to produce the chopping or fluttering sound. I suspect that your induction modifications changed the flow regime into the compressor and that's why the nature of the surging changed.

Disappointing that TT didn't identify this issue before releasing this latest version of the S148 to market. If TT retro-fit a 66mm compressor wheel this should resolve the issue and give you an S148 which has a deserved reputation for being one of the most effective upgrade turbo's on a 3S-GTE.

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1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:56 pm 
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cms-gt4 wrote:
..... I do want to get the car back on the road some day.
:lol:

Quote:
I know of some high power 185s using 205 boxes and only started having problems in what seems to be the over 700whp area. Pat C managed to run his in his 212mph standing mile run as well as his over 800whp drag runs. These guys are now working on custom gear sets to go further.
That's what gives me hope. I know I'll get more transmission loss with the standard gearbox but it keeps things simple ...and saves me money.

Regarding the Evo based transmission the adaptor plate is probably one of the least of your worries. These days you can get that sort of thing CNC fabricated at relatively modest cost. The bigger challenge are the prop shafts. Sure, you can get bespoke shafts designed and made but they will cost. I think you might get into MakTrak territory quite easily but I must admit it would be an interesting project.

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1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:45 pm 
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Sad that to have seemingly fallen into the strap a hamster wheel to a windmill turbo design mindset

Are there videos of this online for people who are not members of other clubs?

One of the better examples of turbo surge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCj6Spwl1CU


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:21 pm 
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So I will have to drop the engine anyway to do the clutch and install the 205 transmission.
If I decided to go ahead and get forged pistons, what else do you think I might need to upgrade while I am in there? Rods or bearings? I guess head studs as well since they need to be replaced.
Is there is a VIN on the 205 engine? I supposedly got a late 90s engine. 97 or 98, and the rumor was the casting imperfections were sorted by then. If I ended up with a 94 or something I would likely get a whole new block.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:49 pm 
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two_OH_five wrote:
Sad that to have seemingly fallen into the strap a hamster wheel to a windmill turbo design mindset

Are there videos of this online for people who are not members of other clubs?

One of the better examples of turbo surge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCj6Spwl1CU
Bricktop's video link of the compressor 'flutter' is here: http://youtu.be/UltoqYz6ZcI
IMO he has done a pretty thorough job of investigating the issue and despite my initial scepticism when I read the detail it does look like a case of TT mismatching the compressor wheel to the housing. Very unlike Geoff Kershaw :? :(

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1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:24 pm 
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cms-gt4 wrote:
So I will have to drop the engine anyway to do the clutch and install the 205 transmission.
If I decided to go ahead and get forged pistons, what else do you think I might need to upgrade while I am in there? Rods or bearings? I guess head studs as well since they need to be replaced.
Is there is a VIN on the 205 engine? I supposedly got a late 90s engine. 97 or 98, and the rumor was the casting imperfections were sorted by then. If I ended up with a 94 or something I would likely get a whole new block.
If you are forging the engine then it's worth replacing the water pump, oil pump and oil pressure relief valve. Rods are optional but worth doing for security if you have the money. I've got Carrillo rods in my track build. ARP bolts all round of course :) The sump needs to be machined to allow clearance for the ARP's. New belts, idler pulley, tensioner. Rather than use the workshop manual bearing measurements we built my engine by measuring the journals and selecting the correct bearings to achieve a race spec clearance. I think we used ACL bearings (it was a while ago!)
What clutch are you going to use?
There's no VIN on the 3S-GTE. There are differences between the JDM and UK (Euro) spec engines. The latter has all the EGR porting in the head and plenum. The JDM doesn't have all this complication so in my view it's an easier engine to work on as you don't have to blank off all the EGR holes and it looks neater as well. Over the years a lot of effort has been put into investigating the 3S-GTE blocks and it's clear that there is no systematic difference in cylinder wall thickness. There are a lot of urban myth's circulating about 185 blocks being better but I have seen no evidence of that myself. Best thing to do is measure the block with ultrasonic gear to get an idea how much cylinder wall meat you have to play with when boring and honing for the new forged pistons. There are details on www.gtfours.co.uk where to take the measurements.
That's all I can think of for now.

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1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:11 pm 
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Hi,

wise words don, the only diffenrece between gen.2/3 is a cooling hole between cyl.2/3 from gen.3 and on, here you have just a few mm wall thicknes, possible the best way is to bore the block less as possible
i took a measurement on the bore, to be sure what i need and then i ordered some custom cp's in 86,25mm - now i did ~5000km snf over 500NM wihtout any issues

greedz

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:55 am 
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I would do everything on a forged rebuild that I did on a normal rebuild
For me the list was
Cylinder head skim
New valve guides and seals
A few shims to reset valve clearances
Cam cover seal
Camshaft oil seals
New headgasket
New oil and water pumps
Oil pressure relief valve
New main and thrust bearings
New conrod bearings
Both crankshaft oil seals
New timing belt
New gaskets for both manifolds
Both o rings for the oil pickup pipe
All manifold studs
Various other gaskets for water elbows etc
Driveshaft oil seals

Basically if it's made of rubber replace it
If it's a wear item replace it
If it looked at you funny during disassembly replace it

I bought a complete engine rebuild kit which included 99% of the gaskets/seals and added bearings etc etc to suit. Toyota do (or certainly did at the time) the overhaul set. I actually bought aftermarket but regretted not using the oem kit as some of the gaskets were inferior quality


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:39 pm 
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That is a lot of good info, and likely beyond the scope of my current capabilities. For the time and cost of new tools involved, I wonder if I would be better off buying a built short block and going that route.
Unless I decide to go find a cheap extra block and start building and treating it as a learning process. Then I could still enjoy my car while I sort that all out. I will hast it all out in my budget. Considering my budget will consist of a couple LSDs, new suspension, forged wheels, and some carbon fiber I am not sure how much horse power budget room I will have.

I was looking at fensports turbo page for the 205.
http://www.fensport.co.uk/Parts/Model_1 ... ory_1/1961

They claim that 1.2 bar is good for about 320bhp. If 350bhp is the safety limit of the pistons, then I can be good with the 320bhp for a while. I had only planned on running a max of 17psi (1.17 bar) on race days which is still under that limit if that estimate is close to correct. If that is the case, I could spend next year just enjoying the engine with more boost as is while doing my other work. When the other work is done then I can see what is left over for an engine build over next winter. I guess my biggest issue will be if the stock clutch can take that sort of power for the time being.
http://www.convertunits.com/from/bar/to/psi

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:25 am 
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To be honest most of that list isn't technical or difficult

Gaskets, o rings and seals are all pretty self explanatory, pumps and pressure regulators are just bolt on items etc etc

The only area that really requires special tools is the head work. Since there's no way a normal person will have the tools required for a skim it will be necessary to use a specialist shop for that work. Similarly most people won't have the presses needed to fit new valve guides so that work needs to be done externally. Probably by the same firm
I chose to strip the head myself and do the reshimming, a process that needed a special tool (valve spring compressor) and feeler gauge set but if you just shipped a built head a decent company will do all the work

Outside of that a decent socket set, torque wrench,4 quarts of perseverance, 0.5l of common sense and 100mls of OCD should be all you need

It wasn't a cheap exercise though I must say. I spent at least £750 on the new parts and barring a huge favour the head work would probably have been another 2-300
Lastly I had engine parts scattered all over the house so a contingency fund for spouse passification is probably wise :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:54 am 
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Regarding your uncertainty around the stock clutch coping with 320bhp. I ran a stock clutch in my 330bhp ST205 without any problems. This included quite a few track days but I made sure I didn't do any drag racing away from the lights! The worst abuse it got was when I used the Four to tow a tree trunk out of the back garden (don't ask.... :oops: )

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1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four ST205WRC JDM 269bhp @ 0.9bar
1994 Toyota Celica GT-Four Special GT 590bhp @ 1.8bar
1989 Van Diemen RF88/89 Formula Ford 1600
2008 Nissan Patrol GU 3.0L ZD30DDTi 154bhp


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:59 pm 
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Thanks for the info guys. I called me dad, who has infinitely more tools than I and asked him about engine rebuild stuff. Its something I think I might tackle next winter. I looked into my options. I did some research on the 1ar but it looks as if that might be something better left to a real engine builder. There is zero aftermarket so everything is custom. What made me decide that its not worth the effort is that so much knowledge on FI and proper internal setups. Plus it looks like a lot of expensive headwork. I found an engine for 1500usd, but I imagine it will cost me another 4-7 for all the parts to make it a monster or even functional. It would be nice to have that extra displacement and lighter engine, but at this time it is beyond what I want to spend.

I considered the 5s 2.2 block, but that goes back to our talk on EMS. It might be a fast fun car, but adding the complexity to it might not be worth the trouble.

After talking to you guys, I think for the simplicity of reliability and power I will run the boost at 16-17 for now. Come next winter I will be looking at a proper rebuild with better parts that can still operate under the standard ECU. As for turbo. I will leave the stock 20b in there for now. If these local ct20b builders do manage to show some more data on real gains then I will get one of those. If not, when it comes time for the rebuild I have my eye on the borg warner efr series turbos. Seems to have incredible spool and lots of output. They are expensive, but vs the cost at raising the displacement etc... I think it will offset it.

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