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Water Pump Upgrade -> Job Done
http://gt4dc.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3416		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Sunny [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Water Pump Upgrade -> Job Done
Hi folks

i started this week a R&D project, target is to minimize the water pump clearance and to calculate how much percentage the flow raise

here some pictures from my construction

[img][img]http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/6586/wasserpumpenupgrade2.jpg[/img][/IMG]

[img][img]http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/2193/wasserpumpenupgrade.jpg[/img][/IMG]

[img][img]http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/1074/wasserpumpenupgrade1.jpg[/img][/IMG]

tomorrow i will calculate the actual flow

then it goes on by measuring the actual rotor clearence and to see how much i will milling from the thermostat housing, target is 0,5mm clearence
actuel it looks like around 3mm, very much for such a small pump

greetz
Author:  Sunny [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi,

actual the pump do 6,4L/min

greetz
Author:  two_OH_five [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
at what egine rpm?

Datajon posted up some figures a while back I seem to recall. Try searching his posts

Changing pump flow rate won't necessarily help anything. Flow through the radiator is restricted by the thermostat to control engine temp. All you'll achieve with more flow from the pump is more flow through the coolant bypass hoses
Author:  Wolf_Tm [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
two_OH_five wrote:
Changing pump flow rate won't necessarily help anything. Flow through the radiator is restricted by the thermostat to control engine temp. All you'll achieve with more flow from the pump is more flow through the coolant bypass hoses


Exactly.

Moreover, given that no-one ever had any overtemp problem, at any power output, due to a pump flow issue, what's the utility of doing this?!

Sorry, but I don't understand!

You can look for any pump flow issue when at your max power, with thermostat ALWAYS and FULLY opened (that is to say thermostat removed), you find your temps are still increasing.

IMHO.
Author:  Sunny [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi,

the tip comes from a TTE engineer, i talked long time ago

the engine does 2740rpm, doesn't know exatly how much rpm the pump do
my flow rate is not the flow rate on the 3S-GTE, for my calculation i only need the same basic conditions

i be with you, the thermostat restricted the flow, but if i raise the power of the water pump the flow must also raise as energy doesn't can end in smoke
(there is no thermostat in my construction, i cut it out)

if you aks me why i do this, there are some reasons

- i need a winter hobby
- i never know one that have done this before
- i'am interested in technics
- i was affraid when i first saw the rotor clearance

greetz
Author:  Wolf_Tm [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 5:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sunny wrote:

if you aks me why i do this, there are some reasons

- i need a winter hobby



Ah ok... now I understand! :D :D :D
Author:  two_OH_five [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
IMO you need to be quite careful doing this

I can see potential problems

IF you raise the the flow rate significantly the you'll be pumping more water round relatively uncooled water bypass pipes. You'll also reduce the time any given volume of water spends in the engine - hence it will not raise in temperature as much as usual. The thermostat will open more to compensate for this but then you'll have cooler than normal water flowing through the radiator faster than normal. This will reduce the efficiency of the main water radiator

You might find that you need a larger water radiator to compensate for this


Remember, TTE were designing for a very specific set of parameters. They run high boost RPM limited (due to turbo restrictors). I can see in this scenario improved flow may well be a bonus. At lower engine RPM the water system may well benefit from an improvement

They also run a completely different cooling package with different radiators and an oil to air/water cooler

I think you'd be better off spending time on a good header tank conversion to improve de-airation
Author:  two_OH_five [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
PS
The test rig is a great bit of work!

I think the pulley ratios are wrong since you have a reduction drive (driver pulley < pump pulley ) where then engine has what looks like 1:1 drive (driver pulley = pump pulley)

But still an excellent effort 8)
Author:  Nibbles [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
I would say that increased flow would give less thermal gradient across the engine (out temp - in temp) which should be beneficial - so long as turbulance and cavitation don't become an issue.

Radiator efficiency shouldn't be reduced as the same proportion should go via radiator or bypass. If anything, faster flow should make the transfer of heat from engine block to radiator core more efficient.

On the negative side, more engine power would be going into pumping water rather than driving the wheels.

That's how I see it anyway.
Author:  Sunny [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi,

i know the issue with the pulley's but i haven't found other old pulleys for my test and i doesn't want use new ones

i understand you, and my aspect is the same, the efficiency will drop becouse of a less temperature difference, but this also means that the water is cool :idea:
and the temperature difference in the engine is high :idea:
and the radiator becomes efficiency when the themp. raise

i will become more circulation in the same time

Chris-de-Bear, i also see the possibility of cavitation, specially in the water bores when the flow raise
you can rounding the bores & edges in block and head to controll this

i think the power loss on the pump is so minimal, that this have no effect

goodness knows, maybe that i become a so good cooling system so that i can raise the ignition :lol:
honestly my whole target is that i'am the very first guy with icicle on the engine...in summer :lol:

bigger golpher radiator and also a header/breathing tank is mounted
http://gt4dc.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2908&start=90

thanks for the compliment 8)

PS.: never forget, a german speak says "juvenile study" if i translated it correct :)

greetz
Author:  Sunny [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi,

2nd PS:

the oil to air/water cooler you speak is listend as gearbox cooler (only 4588,07 bugs :lol: ), i can send you explosion pictures from corolla WRC if you want them :)

greetz
Author:  two_OH_five [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
Chris-de-Bear wrote:
I would say that increased flow would give less thermal gradient across the engine (out temp - in temp) which should be beneficial


Never thought of that. It's a good point!
Author:  Sunny [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
two_OH_five wrote:
Chris-de-Bear wrote:
I would say that increased flow would give less thermal gradient across the engine (out temp - in temp) which should be beneficial


Never thought of that. It's a good point!


Hi,

i also agree :)

greetz
Author:  two_OH_five [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
yes please to diagrams!

And photos too :D and tech specs and anything else you can get your hands on :lol:
Author:  Wolf_Tm [ Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sunny wrote:

the oil to air/water cooler you speak is listend as gearbox cooler (only 4588,07 bugs :lol: )



AM 65779 cooler is listed as engine/gearbox oil/water cooler
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